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04/23/2009 10:01 AM
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I have noticed recently that the frequency of forum updates has decreased. Is this by design?
Thanks,
Ken
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04/23/2009 10:03 AM
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Hi Ken,
Do you mean the daily digests that you receive via email? If so, depending on which categories you signed up for, if there is no new topic or message in that category, you will not get a notification. If your question is different, please let me know so I can address it. We are always looking for ways to improve the user experience, so if you have input let's hear it!
Regards,
Rachel Regan
LEI Forums Moderator
moderator@lean.org
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04/24/2009 09:06 AM
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Hi Rachel -
I am talking about the forum feedbacks on your site, where we can post comments on the various topics such as manufacturing, business prosesses, et.
I was just curious because I find these to be very informative.
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04/27/2009 11:42 AM
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Ken,
Per our ground rules, all posts are reviewed prior to posting (typically a curosory glance to ensure links work, ground rules such as no solicitation are being followed, etc.). Our SLA (service level agreement) is that all posts will be reviewed within 2 business days. Typically this happens much quicker than the 2 days, but depending on availability (travel schedule, meetings, etc.), it could take that long.
To open up the conversation with you and the rest of the community, the feedback we have received is that this review is helpful and appreciated so that the reader's time isn't wasted and the integrity of the LEI Forums is built in as much as possible. What are your thoughts?
Regards,
Rachel
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10/06/2009 05:10 PM
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Hi Rachel,
Ken hasn't responded, but I'll chime in! =)
Personally I find the "posting delay" aggravating and it results in me visiting less often (which hasn't been a lot lately, I'll admit).
I believe it does catch the odd bad link or solicitation, but does that added level of service outweigh the annoyance of having to wait for a day or two to see your post, and then another day or two to see someone respond? For some it might. For me it does not. In today's day and age where instant exchange of information is the norm, having to wait 1-2 days feels like having a conversation via snail mail.
I've been a member of many different message boards over the years, and the immediate posting of submissions has never detracted from my experience. On the contrary, I've joined message boards before and once I find out there is a "posting delay" I almost immediately disengage and do not revisit.
I've found that the key to a good online community is a clear purpose, strong guidelines that are enforced, and a strong moderator presence. I've never been disappointed when these these elements are in place.
I would be really curious to see what an open survey of board members would come up with if you put this issue to them. Lean begins with defining "value" according to the customer. Is Lean.org certain that the screening it conducts on all posts represents sufficient value to its customers to warrant the "posting delay?" Or is the evidence only anecdotal ("We received a few comments saying they liked it..."). Could you be losing customers without knowing it?
I know I'm probably flogging a dead horse here, but my arm isn't tired yet! =)
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10/07/2009 09:05 PM
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I whole heartedly agree with Jason and Ken. This is the only forum I am aware of that has that delay. Ironically, it generates a lot of waste. It takes a lot of time to create a thoughtful response and it is quite frustrating to repeat someone else's similar thoughts. It also creates wait time for the question asker and doesn't encourage true dialog.
I agree that all responses need to be read and filtered, but other sites do fine by pulling inappropriate responses after posting and then reprimanding or even taking away posting rights from those that can't play nice.
Maybe it would help our frustration if we had some idea of how big a problem inappropriate posts were? What % gets pulled? How often do we get spammed?
Thanks,
Brent
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10/09/2009 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by: 169103
I whole heartedly agree with Jason and Ken. This is the only forum I am aware of that has that delay. Ironically, it generates a lot of waste. It takes a lot of time to create a thoughtful response and it is quite frustrating to repeat someone else's similar thoughts.
This may be the best argument against posting delay yet. I hadn't thought of that, but it's true. Happened to me a few times, and it's pretty de-motivating!
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10/09/2009 02:55 PM
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Dear Forums Community,
Thank you for your thoughtful input regarding what you, as users, want and expect from your Forums experience. I appreciate the notion of "immediate gratification", and do understand the frustration of having to wait for posts to show up. I am the only one reviewing posts (except when I'm on vacation and someone else fills in), and know it can take from a few minutes up to two days (per our stated standard), depending on what else I have going on, or if I"m travelling. However, as a former Toyota employee, it is ingrained in me to not accept, produce, or pass on "defects." In the context of the Forums, this can mean a link that doesn't work, an attachment that doesn't show up, a duplicate post (or posts), or solicitation that is against our ground rules. While I have not kept data on the "% C/A" (percent of posts that come in that are 'complete and accurate' and could be posted without revision, clarification,etc.), I did today (thank you for that suggestion Brent). Remember, this is just one data point: out of about 40 submissions, there were 6 that had something "wrong". Some were duplicate posts (same post in multiple categories, some were exactly worded duplicate posts in the same topic). Another was missing attachments. The goal with the Forums is to make it worth the reader's time. When the reader has to wade through multiple posts, or spend time replying that attachments didn't show up, then other readers have to wade through those, I see that as not adding value from the "customer" perspective.
I am happy to continue the dialogue, and make changes that make sense, but do not want to compromise the idea of value. Please continue to weigh in with your thoughts. I look forward to a productive conversation and progressive changes!
Regards,
Rachel Regan
LEI Forums Moderator
moderator@lean.org
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10/12/2009 09:10 PM
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Thanks, Rachel.
All of the other forums that I belong to are self-policing when it comes to quality - with the moderator only jumping in to remove unprofessional entries. If a link doesn't work, then a quick note from a member and it gets fixed pretty quickly. The same with missing attachments. If there are duplicate threads, then a quick note that says "hey, let's continue this in XYZ..." will fix it. Log-ons from spammers are blocked if they won't abide by the rules. To me these are very minor inconveniences compared to our delay issues. We should be practicing quality at the source and problem solving and not expecting to inspect in quality.
I don't know how or by whom the SLA was created, but value is always defined by the customers. Outside of this thread, is there a way to capture what the customers of this forum value today or what trade-offs they are willing to make?
Thanks,
Brent
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10/18/2009 09:33 PM
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Dear Rachel
As a customer (albeit a non-paying one as we all are) I'm with you on this. First, you have demonstrated lean principles in your last post in this thread and that's a small lesson for me although a great one.
There is a balance between moderation and non-moderation of forums. In favour of your approach, I find that completely open forums sometimes attract content and tone that is often unhelpful, generating more heat than light. Even if this sort of material plus broken links etc. are removed after a while they are a distraction. I feel a more measured and less polemical discourse is appropriate to the whole area of "lean" given its underpinning principles (am I right that one of the less-reported Toyota principles is "Respect for people"?).
Having said that, I can understand the frustration of people who find their post is similar to another response. On the other hand, in relation to an earlier enquiry or question there can be power in knowing that a number of people hold a similar view.
Personally I think it's great that LEI host these forums on a pro bono basis (if that's the right legal jargon) and enjoy most of what I read.
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10/22/2009 07:06 PM
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Rachel,
For some reason I have not been receiving the Daily Digests in my email for several weeks. I have checked my profile and that looks OK as far as being signed up. Can you check on the problem. Nothing has changed on my end as far as I can tell. They are valuable and I would like to get them started again.
Bill
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10/22/2009 07:08 PM
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Hi Bill,
I've updated your profile so that you will again receive daily updates (all categories?) I've heard from others that something seems to have changed, and our web guy Josh and I are looking into what may have happened. I apologize for the inconvenience - thanks for letting me know.
Regards,
Rachel
moderator@lean.org
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10/26/2009 01:27 PM
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Hi Rachel,
It's back. Thanks a lot!
Bill
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06/01/2010 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by: Moderator
some were exactly worded duplicate posts in the same topic).
Just as an FYI, when I first posted to these forums, I hit the submit button multiple times because my post did not appear immediately and I thought something was wrong. Naturally, I should have read the rules etc, however, I imagine that I am not the only one and that the posting delay actually is the cause of many of these duplicate posts.
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01/20/2011 02:38 PM
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I hate to bring this up again, but updates to the forum have been taking up to four days recently. Have the ground rules changed?
Just curious.......
Thanks,
Ken
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01/20/2011 02:44 PM
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Ken,
The ground rules have definitely not changed. Rest assured if they ever do, we will update the Forums FAQ accordingly.
We have been trying hard to stick to our Service Level Agreement stated previously of 2 business days. Of course, with the holidays we have had recently, that may mean more than 2 calendar days.
All the posts are checked manually, and I don't believe that any have been missed, but if there is one in particular that somehow did not get posted, please let me know.
Regards,
Jane
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03/14/2011 09:05 AM
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Me again. As of today, it has been six calendar days (four business days) since the forum was last updated. Just curious as to why.
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03/14/2011 09:08 AM
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Ken,
My sincerest apologies. I was traveling for (as was most of the LEI team), and experienced a few computer issues during that time - not an excuse, I know.
I believe the forums were last updated on Tuesday afternoon, so by my count - we are now at 3 full business days (still more than the 2 we state as the time we try to adhere to).
I am working on all updates as we speak. And I appreciate your attention to these Forums, and will work harder going forward to meet or exceed the 2-day timeframe.
Jane
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04/18/2011 12:41 PM
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I've been active in other Lean forums, particular leanagile, leandevelopment and kanbandev on Yahoo! groups. While I haven't paid much attention to this forum in the past, I came to it recently in search of a dialog on Lean Management.
Having just submitted a question a few hours ago and not seeing it appear yet, I decided to read this thread and have been fascinated by the discussion of the moderation policy. The topic of maximizing forum "productivity" is one that is dear to my heart.
The data on defect rate (6 of 40 posts in the sample) is noteworthy, but I think it's important to note that defects are just one form of waste. Delay, of course, is another form of waste and one that sounds like it has resulted in dissatisfied and even lost customers, not to mention some of the aforementioned defects (e.g. duplicate posts).
I also think it's worth noting that while the policy of "don't pass along defects" makes sense when a natural opportunity for detection exists, what we're really talking about here is artificially inserting an inspection step in the process. The question is whether there is an alternative, more effective/lean way of detecting, dealing with and ultimately preventing defects.
With the "respect for people" and "improvement kata" in mind, I have a few questions for Rachel or Jane:
* What is your vision for this forum? I'd personally like to see this as THE place to go for Lean dialog based on the quality and quantity of dialog.
* What is your target condition? Rather than trying to minimize number of defective posts, I'd rather we target a number of quality posts (e.g. hundred quality posts per month within 60 days).
* What alternative moderation techniques have you considered? What sources have you benchmarked? What experiment are you planning to run next to improve the process?
Pete
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10/19/2011 04:16 PM
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I have just posted a message on this topic and then read this thread.
The responsibility of moderation should be shifted onto everybody with a "report this message to moderator" button next to every message. For example take a look here: http://www.eclipse.org/forums/index.php/t/250053/
This will remove the (ironic) WAIT TIME for posts to be visible on a lean website. ha ha.
Michelle
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